In Discussion: Sun Myung Moon and Arthur Ford

Informal talk following a séance with the famous American medium


During the time of SMM's first world tour in 1965, he and some early missionaries

participated in several seances with the renowned spiritual medium Arthur Ford

(transcripts of which can be found in early editions of Ford's book Unknown But

Known, Signet 1968). On March 18, a day when SMM had created four of the 120

world wide holy grounds, in the eastern states of Maryland, Delaware, Pennsylvania

and New Jersey, the final seance with Ford was held. What follows is a transcript,

not from the seance itself, but from the informal discussion afterward. Listed in

Ford's book as having attended the seance that day were Mr. Sun Myung Moon, for

whom the sitting was held, Col. Bo Hi Pak, former attaché of the Korean Embassy; Miss

Kim, interpreter for Sun Myung Moon, Mr. Walter Voelker, the Rev. W. V Rauscher,

the Rev. Robert Lewis and a group of Mr. Moon's friends from Korea, Japan, the

United States and other places. " A person by the name of Fletcher is mentioned: he is

the person in the spirit world who helps Ford mediate with that realm while he is in

a trance.

In light of True Parents' ongoing work to liberate and bless those in the spiritual

world, the following will likely be of interest. The content was transcribed from original

tapes and is thought to have never appeared in print before. It does so here

with minimal editing. The text attributed to Miss Kim is mainly Prof. Kim Young-Oon's

interpreting for SMM, but on occasion it may be her own question or statement.

Miss Kim: ... Our leader Would like to say…since the spirit world is very complicated, unless you know the cause and the principle of the spirit world you cannot advance beyond a certain point. You only reach a certain point and can never progress from there.

Often you can be a victim of the spirits who are controlling you. Therefore it is absolutely necessary to know the cause and the principle behind all [the] phenomena.

Each spirit will come from one direction, and naturally sees things and perceives things from one direction, not from all directions, from four directions.

Therefore, when one spirit comes he will lead you into one direction and [when] another spirit comes he will lead you to another direction. Each time when the spirit changes, the direction will change. So it is very important and very necessary for you to know the center, or how can I say. to know the whole directions and come to right the center.

Walter Voelker: Well, Miss Kim, we have at times heard a spirit entity, who I think is very wonderful, from a very high plane. And I personally believe in this spirit entity as being good and wise.

Now I know that this is the one who is helping a doctor to find a cure for a disease. Now I am willing to give up all hope of anything for myself to help this other spirit, because I believe this is a good spirit.

Miss Kim: He says, those spirits who come to you are from many different ages, many different times.

Some maybe 3000 years old, some may be just 2000. Some may have lived 500 or 100 years ago.

Those spirits who lived in different times have different characteristics. They come to you naturally with different characteristics and with different missions and naturally lead you not to the ultimate goal but often for their own selfish purpose. But some yes, as Mr. Voelker said, are wise and good.

But the most important thing for us is to go through all the stages and become perfect and be able to control two worlds, the spiritual world and the physical world, knowing the principles behind the two worlds and the principles behind the spiritual phenomena.

We are created to be the lord in perfection. Why should we be under somebody else and guided by that spirit all the time? We can be beyond them, can go beyond them.

Why do those spirits come to the earth to contact us, not to the spirit world?

That is because their goal is the earth, not the spirit world. In other words, something important is going on on the earth; therefore their aim is to reach people on earth. Then, why should we on earth aim or create some thing in the spirit world... Therefore, there is one or ones on earth who are perfected and able to rule the spirit world and Physical world.

So we are created to become perfected on earth, therefore our goal must be achieved on earth. That is why spirits come back in spirit to earth to have contact with people to attain their perfection.

He [SMM] has had numerous spiritual experiences for forty years, fortyfive years. And he always discerned the purpose and aim of the spirits who came to him. Many spirits came to him and he always discerned for what purpose [briefly tape unclear.] If you don't know the purpose of Fletcher you can only be used by him and can be a victim of his use. He is asking whether you were not sick when you first had contact with Fletcher. [Seems the answer was no.] Did you have another experience before Fletcher came?

Arthur Ford: I tell about it in the book. It all came spontaneously, you see, and I didn't know what it was.

But Fletcher tells us that the reason he is doing this through me is because by doing this through me he is progressing and he won't have to reincarnate. In other words, he is putting enough good into the world to .... [Miss Kim translates]

Miss Kim: Then you don't believe in reincarnation?

Ford: I believe in it, but I don't think it's an absolute thing.

Miss Kim: Then you must know why he is progressing through you.

Ford: He says that by doing this he won't have to reincarnate. He can go on and progress, because there comes an end to karma. He is working on his karma, so...

Miss Kim: The problem is there. How can he progress through you, by using you?

Ford: He is helping people.

Miss Kim: Fletcher comes to you to help people through you in order to be benefited by the service. Is that clear?

He wanted to be benefited. There are spirits of many levels and you will have contact with them. We have to revolutionise, what do I say, in other words you must get rid of some spirits to advance yourself, to progress. Until you reach a certain point you must get rid of that spirit and go on. You should not be confined by one spirit. To advance further you must be able to get rid of the spirit. To do so you must know the law and principle behind. There is law and principle in the spirit world, of course you know.

You know, there are many groups and societies in the spirit world. In other words many religious groups in the spirit world. All the founders of great religious groups and advanced spirits, no matter how high they are they have to descend to earth and contact people in order to progress. So you must know on what level Fletcher is. Therefore, you must know the truth by which those spirits are operating or working. If the truth operates and rules them, then we must subjugate ourselves to the truth, not the spirit. Then the more important thing is we must subjugate ourselves or we must follow the one who brought the truth. If we are to follow the truth, then naturally we are to follow the one who brought the ... truth.

Ford: We don't worship the spirits, they are just people who are able to help us as teachers. In our particular culture, I like to think that I'm following the teachings of Christ as I understand them. And Fletcher is just another person who is able to help, that's all because being freed from the physical, he is able to see more clearly and he is able to contact others. I don't' think any of us who do this sort of thing really worship the spirits.

Miss Kim: [Yes, but] Unless you know the law and principle of the truth and are able to control, rule the spirit world, you cannot overcome this evil world.

If you cannot overcome this evil world you cannot subjugate Satan. Then if you cannot subjugate Satan there is no perfection for you.

Jesus came for that purpose, to make people perfect.

[SMM speaks, but at same time there is a brief muffled discussion in the back ground.

Walter Voelker (?) laughs and says "...said that Sun Moon is a very important man ...

so we should take our shoes off."]

Voelker: I'm asking for help on a question which is important to me. We have a spirit named Vera Calhoun who speaks to us. With her is a scientist. We are told by some spirits on the other side that she is from a very high place.

She wants, and this scientist wants, to help cure a very bad disease here and is telling us how to do it accurately. A physical disease. We now know already more than our universities. Now, it is probably true that these spirits do this for themselves, but they are doing to help us to cure cancer, see? Now, to me curing cancer is so important that I would rather do this and cure cancer than save my own soul.

Miss Kim: I see. [Translates to SMM]

Well, he said it is important to cure ahm,...I am talking in Korean, (laughter), to cure cancer. But it is more important to know what is God's will, what is the desire of mankind, what is the desire of heaven and earth; that is, to make the Kingdom Of Heaven on earth, and perfect each one, and live with God. Then curing cancer is minor. The purpose of Christ's coming was to connect the spiritual world and the physical world and make them one, and destroy all sins and evil by subjugating Satan, and establish the kingdom of good on earth.

You see, by the coming of this man of perfection, the Kingdom of Heaven will be established on earth. All the history of God's providence has been aiming for that. Then cancer will be automatically cured in that kingdom. He said this is important. In other words, he says suppose your finger is cut, is it important to just heal your finger or to save your whole life? The whole world is striving for one aim, that is to find a man of perfection and establish the world of perfection. And God has been working for this. Therefore it is important to find it and reach it.

Ford(?): You are saying, in other words, what does it profit a man if he were to gain the whole world yet lose his own soul.

Miss Kim: That should be applied to this sinful world of the Fall. In other words, in the fallen world, your life, your soul is more important than any material things and others. That doesn't mean, you see, what Jesus said on different occasions had different meanings ... do you understand?

Voelker: Depending on the occasion.

Miss Kim: Yes, depending on the circumstances.

Voelker: If I can save you from cancer, or save my soul by studying what God's will is, I have to make a choice. So I may say I would rather save people who are suffering and go to hell myself, or maybe come back again.

This is a real question.

Miss Kim: Supposing you have a school and a whole nation who are dying, or declining. Now, you have the power and the truth by which you can save either, which will you choose, the nation or a small school?

Voelker: I'd choose the first one.

Miss Kim: The purpose of man is not just to cure cancer, but to become the lord and ruler of the whole universe.

That is the purpose of your life. If you lose that, and just cure one or two individuals, what good? You see, that is needed even for the one who has cancer. Suppose he is cured of cancer and has no real purpose in his life, what good?

Voice: Well, the cure saves only the body, and the cure will come anyway whether through doctors, whether it is helped by a medium or not. But I understand that [were there] true godliness on earth, there would really be no disease.

Miss Kim: Yes, that's right. You know, he has been contacting and [unintelligible] many, many spirit people. And they all came with purpose, and I had my purpose to contact them, confront [consult?] them. They come to use me for their own purpose, but I have to pass over them, how do I say, step beyond them. Always they ask for something to be done for them. If I would follow and obey them and do what they want all my life, I would become a prey of their spirits and the end of my life would be miserable, physically and spiritually I would be very miserable. That is why the end of many mediums' lives is very tragic.

Therefore great religious leaders often discouraged this medium.... It is dangerous. In other words, he said, human beings can be greater than spirit people.

Because we are living at a spiritually more advanced age, we can advance far farther than they.

Voice: I understand that, but then of course, the process through time has been that sensitives have unfolded that past. Are we to be without them?

Miss Kim: They testify to the truth to a certain degree. Therefore it is good to use them for that purpose. But we have to find the ultimate truth by them or using them. But you should not remain where they are.

Ford(?): They are teachers, but not of the master, so to speak.

Voice: They are selected people, though.

Miss Kim: Still we have to go beyond them. Therefore we should not remain with them. In other words, we being children of God have to reach where God is. We should not stay in the middle of the way, middle of the road. To reach where God is, spirits must go through the earth.

Voice: I'm sure Dr. Ford realises that.

Voelker: But to make ourselves perfect, is it just between us and God, or mustn't we help our fellow man whether he [is in this world or spirits(?)] Certainly. So, do I try to save myself or do I try to help my neighbor?

Voice: ... Quakerism coming out, ...concentrate on the individual first.

Voelker: No, you... [brief unintelligible exchange probably between Voelker and Voice]

Miss Kim: He says he understood what Fletcher spoke through Dr. Ford, and he knows even behind, the things behind the message, why Fletcher has to speak that way.

Ford: Do I understand this to be what you are saying, that those who are fully now in the spiritual world, are they able to advance spiritually only inasmuch as they help people on earth?

Miss Kim: Yes.

Ford: Is that right?

Miss Kim: Yes. Because of man's fall they haven't achieved perfection or the final goal yet, therefore they have to come and serve and... We have to know the principle behind why they have to come... You see, other religions also teach kind of a Second Advent in their own language, second manifestation.

We have to know why they teach that.

Ford: Ask Mr. Moon; the word angel means messenger. The way we look on it is, we don't depend on these people.

They are simply the messengers who bring God's answer to us. God uses them as messengers.

Miss Kim: Do you mean are they all angels, is that your question?

Ford: Well that is.... good spirits or good angels.

Miss Kim: No. Angels are messengers, but other spirit men can be messengers too from time to time. But he is asking you, why do you stay at the stage of contacting angels? We are far above angels.

Ford: We only look on these people who communicate, these spirits, as people to help us. But, we don't.---we know they are working their problems and we have to go on. They are only a limited manifestation of God, just as we are. We don't worship them. But we know that God has always had to speak through people who were able to become aware on a higher plane, just like through Mr. Moon and other people. So it is just one of the ways in which God works. It's not the only way.

Is that right?

[As SMM is speaking, Ford seems to be asking Voelker if Miss Kim said something to SMM. Voelker replies that she probably did.]

Miss Kim: There is great confusion and chaos in the spirit world, and in the religious groups on earth. Here, the truth which can lead them out or solve their problems must be revealed. If God is living He has to, He should have some truth by which He can straighten out this confusion and chaos in the spirit world and on earth. This truth must be revealed. At the end of the age, God will choose a selected channel through whom He will reveal that truth.

Voice, possibly Ford: Bind them together.

Miss Kim: Yes. And the second Messiah, or the Lord who comes to fulfill the second advent is to bring that truth. By this truth all the religious groups on earth, religions on earth, will be united.

And also many groups and societies in the spirit world will be united.

Voelker: What is this truth like? I mean, we speak of truth, but what is it? Is it guidance? Is it an explanation of how to solve our problems?

Miss Kim: [Her own words] That truth will be principles which explain all the things behind the phenomena.

Voelker: Yeah, but understanding isn't the whole thing. They must have desire.

Miss Kim: The truth must be the truth which reveals, unfolds the innermost heart of God, the innermost love of God. We said that the law and principle behind the phenomena is the truth of love, the truth concerning God's desire, hope and providence and His will which must be clarified to mankind. When this is clarified, this truth is revealed, all other religious groups will ... come and find themselves in complete oneness with it. In that way the religions will be united.

Voelker: Is this by word or example?

Miss Kim: By word ...

Voelker: Yeah, by word, by speaking or by demonstration?

Miss Kim: [Her own response] Both.

[Translating for SMM] When such truth is revealed the spirit world is to help, cooperate with that truth.... And through the revelator of that truth, mankind will be benefited.

Voelker: Let's hope so. [laughter]

[several speaking at once] ...

Ford: What he has said is wonderful....

Miss Kim: The principle which we teach is not a hypothetical one, [stumbling for words] but a formula by which each one of you can work out your own problem, in other words, how to experience the innermost heart of God and love and to find His will by using the formula to apply it to your self, to your living.

Voelker: Well, what is this formula, [does it mean] _the Divine Principles? I read those nine books! Sometime you tell me, you come to my house. She comes to my house.

Voice: You have all the knowledge but not the understanding yet...

Miss Kim: When you obtain this truth, then you will become the lord of all creation, most victorious one, so happiness peace and freedom will be yours, then there is nothing for you to envy. If you once obtain this truth you are the most victorious one in the whole universe. In other words you are the child of God ruling the whole world, the lord of all creation. Well, he has suffered for the sake of this truth, but he has been only victorious. Now, do you live in this city?

Ford or Voice: We live in New Jersey, only about half-hour ride from here.

Miss Kim: Are you clergymen or students?

Voice: We are priests; ordained...

Miss Kim: He said you must find out the way for man to go, and the religion for man to have, and the right and view of this world a man should have. You should find those. Well, he [seemingly referring to one member] studied in a Lutheran seminary and I studied in a Methodist seminary and also the United Church of Canada. We are very happy [you came here.]

Ford(?): It was our pleasure to be here.

Miss Kim: Our movement is known as the movement in the spirit world, and it will be known and recognized as(?) the movement on earth.
So someday sooner or later you will be in this movement.

Ford(?): I think ...more than half in it now! [Laughter.]

[Ending with multiple conversations going on.]

Voelker: Very good, thank you very much.

[Transcribed from the recordings made thirty-five years ago by George Norton, an

early American member who was driving SMM at the time.]